Transcript of June 9, 2010 Abbas Interview with Charlie Rose on PBS below:
Charlie Rose: You met with the president. What came out of that meet something did you get what you wanted? And what did he want from you?
Mahmoud Abbas: Today, we -- I discussed with Mr. President Obama, it was quite focused on a number of topics. The first topic was the indirect talks which we call proximity talks. And the second topic was the events that had taken place in the sea against the ships that had come in to assist the Palestinian people who live under siege in Gaza. In addition to that, we talked about the reconciliation among Palestinians. However, those were the most -- the two most important topics we discussed.
Charlie Rose: Will there be a call by the Americans and by you for a lifting of the blockade?
Mahmoud Abbas: One of the most important requests that we focused on was to put an end to the Israeli siege imposed on Gaza. In other words, Israel has to open -- to allow all humanitarian materials and everything that the Palestinian people need in the Gaza Strip because this siege has been in place and imposed on the people for more than three years. And the people are suffering from that. That was the first point. The second point we discussed had to do with the international investigation committee or commission that is supposed to investigate the incident and the events that took place regarding the Freedom Flotilla.
Charlie Rose: What's the president prepared to do?
Mahmoud Abbas: I believe that on this specific issue, the president received it quite positively. And we talked about that there was -- it was necessary, really, to open the gateways and have also an international fair and just investigation regarding the second point. As for the first point, we discussed in great detail regarding the talks that are taking place indirectly with the Israelis and how it would be possible to have these talks succeed. And we have assured the president that if there were any substantive progress, concrete progress on the essential issues which have to do with the border and security, it's, at that time, possible to move from indirect talks to direct talks.
Charlie Rose: So what has to happen from your perspective to have direct talks?
Mahmoud Abbas: Israelis have to accept the issue of the border. When we speak about the border, we are asking to have the international legitimacy be implemented. And that says the border of 1967. We had agreed upon that with the government of Olmert. That is the basis of the negotiations should be on the border of 1967. And then there is a possibility to do some swapping or some changes that would be respected on both sides between us and the Israelis. That also we discussed with the government of Olmert, and we are asking the government of Netanyahu to continue proceeding based on that. That is the first point. As for the second point, it is security.
Charlie Rose: Okay. But if Israel continues to build settlements in east Jerusalem, will you refuse to have direct talks?
Mahmoud Abbas: Israel is supposed to have stopped or to stop building in east Jerusalem. This is what we were informed and what we had known that Israel had stopped. However, if Israel were to continue building settlements in east Jerusalem and in the West Bank, then we would have to, once again, review the situation and go back to first the Arab party and the Palestinian leadership. We need to go back to them. There are reference points to discuss with them and to figure out what would be their response. And based on that, in light of that, we will take the appropriate measures.
Charlie Rose: Do you feel that there has been a worldwide outcry against what happened when Israeli interrupted the flotilla, that that has put pressure on Israel that will lead to some new conclusion? Mahmoud
Abbas: I believe that Israel should learn a lesson from this issue. This was a mistake, a big, great mistake at two levels. First, Israel had ships in international waters. That is not in her right. The second thing is that it attacked ordinary people that were bringing humanitarian goods. They were not armed. And they killed individuals. And for that, Israel should learn a lesson from this and not repeat it, because honestly, the entire world took a stand against this more especially that there were at least people from 23 nationalities from around the world. And this is something that the world does not accept at all.
Charlie Rose: Do you believe the Obama administration is prepared to be tougher and put more pressure on Israel than the previous administration of President Bush?
Mahmoud Abbas: What we would like from any U.S. administration is to deal with fairness. to pursue the general interest of all based on international legitimacy. We don't talk about pressures or not pressures or anything of that sort. What we want from every American administration is to implement international law, international legitimacy. And because of that, what we are asking of this administration and what we have requested from previous administrations is that -- for the U.S. administration to work towards implementing this international legitimacy, especially that the Obama administration -- and this is the first time we hear from a U.S. administration talking about that the solution of a two-state solution is in the vital interest of the United States. So for an administration to reach this conclusion, therefore it is expected for the administration to implement that and to try to do it as quickly as possible in order to reach the two-state solution because the two-state solution is no longer only a Palestinian interest or an Israeli interest or a Middle East interest, but it is also an American interest.
Charlie Rose: And so what do you think the president's prepared to do to achieve that result?
Mahmoud Abbas: I believe more focus, more attention, and of course here we need to register the fact that since the beginning of his administration, President Obama spoke from day one about the Middle East issue and the Palestinian issue, and this shows how serious he is, and this is why we expect that he continues in his efforts until we have reached the solution which is in everyone's interest.
Charlie Rose: Mr. President, you called for bold decisions before you came here. You said you want this president to make bold decisions, meaning he has not before, and meaning that you have a suggestion as to what would be bold and essential.
Mahmoud Abbas: No. I don't say that he didn't do that in the past. What I'm saying is that it is very important now to take certain decisions, that is, to take both parties and make them responsible to prevent -- to assume their respective responsibilities and to ask each party to be serious in reaching the solution, and we are ready, we don't want to waste time, we are ready and prepared for a quick solution, what remains to be said is to talk to the Israeli side and I think that America is a friend and an ally of Israel and it can talk to Israel using a language different, that no other country can talk to Israel using that same language.
Charlie Rose: There are those who would argue that this Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, because he is of Likud, because of his previous political life, is more likely to be able to achieve peace, a kind of "Nixon goes to China" idea.
Mahmoud Abbas: I hope that this perception is true, that it is realistic, and that the time has come to see the prime minister of Israel agree to peace, you know, peace is an issue that is important to him, it is important to his people, it is important to everyone.
Charlie Rose: You've been doing this a long time, a long time. Has anything changed other than what happened in Gaza, other than what happened in Lebanon, other than we have seen the growth of Hezbollah on the one hand and Hamas on the other hand as a resistance to the occupation.
Mahmoud Abbas: There are many developments in the world. There is the Afghanistan issue. There are other explosive issues around the world. All of these issues now demand that the world changes its view, its perspective of the conflict in the Middle East. Maybe the world looked at this issue that it was an issue between two parties, whether those two parties succeed or not was not that, and of course the conflict has been going on for more than 60 years. I believe that this issue now is different in the sense that if this issue is not resolved, none of the other issues around it will be resolved. I think that this perception has now been adopted by the administration. We have heard this from Europe and other places, however, it is America now that is thought that if the Middle East issue is not resolved, then other issues would not be resolved. So maybe this is a new world. Maybe this would help to solve the conflict.
Charlie Rose: When you look at where it is today, do you need an American plan?
Mahmoud Abbas: I don’t ask for it but I wish it happened. I hope and wish that the time would come that it is said these are the solutions and here it is up to you to choose, either this conflict could continue forever or you would solve it this way. The solution is present. It is present within the international legitimacy, it is within the Roadmap, it is within the Arab initiative for peace. The Arab peace initiative had offered a model for the world, a model for Israel. You know, countries have said Israel, withdraw from Arab territories and we all as Arabs and Muslims are ready to recognize you and to normalize our relations with you. However, this initiative which was proposed seven years ago, I fear that it may be forgotten in time if Israel did not pay close attention to it and did not feel the historic moment. If America is to take this initiative and give it importance and push, I don’t fear that the world and especially the Western world really gave the attention to the Arab initiative that it is due and this is why I call on the world to pay close attention to this. In the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict for more than 62 countries there is never a country like Saudi Arabia to offer such an initiative. So let them seize this historic moment, take the opportunity and from here I say I wish, I wish that all parties be told, not just the Israelis, but all parties be told that the historic opportunity and your future is on the line.
Charlie Rose: Can there ever be an agreement without a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem?
Mahmoud Abbas: Not possible. Not possible. Not possible in any way. East Jerusalem is occupied territory. The entire world recognizes that including the United States of America, including Olmert who says East Jerusalem or what he calls the Arab neighbors are for the Palestinians and it is their capital. We cannot accept any solution that excludes East Jerusalem.
Charlie Rose: And you will never sign and agreement that does not include --
Mahmoud Abbas: Definitely, surely no. We will not sign any agreement that does not include East Jerusalem as the capitol of Palestine.
Charlie Rose: If you had been president and had been at Camp David where Yasser Arafat was making decisions, would you have agreed with Barak, Ehud Barak’s proposal from the state of Israel? Would you have signed that agreement?
Mahmoud Abbas: If I were to ask you another question, what was the proposal, the project that Barak proposed? I was there. I was there all the time. Barak did not propose one single project, proposal for anything. It was Clinton who was proposing American ideas but Barak did not offer anything. And there is a misunderstanding, there’s a misunderstanding to think that we lost an opportunity. I am saying there was no opportunity. It was not possible to show [unintelligible] in a few days and there were no serious proposals. And thirdly, there are those who are saying, and some now are talking about what happened at Camp David, that the U.S. administration was really more protecting and that Israel not been a fair broker. I’m not the one saying that. Some in the United States are saying this.
Charlie Rose: There’s been a lot of analysis of what happened at Camp David. You were there, though.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yes, I was there.
Charlie Rose: Yes, it is said that Yasser Arafat said at the time, “If I find what you are proposing, I’ll be killed.”
Mahmoud Abbas: I did not hear that at all from Arafat. He did not favor that. But there was nothing concrete offered to Arafat. I was present. There was nothing realistic offered to our side, for him to accept or reject. And it is not right to put Arafat in isolated matter for 16 days and telling him, you know, accept or reject. That is not how things can possibly take place and for negotiations to take place, in spite of the fact that back then we had been prepared for six months for Camp David. However, that proposal was rejected. We came, and within 16 days, he cannot solve.
Charlie Rose: And Taba?
Mahmoud Abbas: Taba also came during that wasted period of time towards the end of the days of the Clinton administration. I don't deny, although the Taba had some positive proposals that we could build upon. However, it came about the end of the days of the administration of President Clinton. That's one. The second point, I don't know why the results of Taba were destroyed. And we know when Sharon went to Al-Aqsa and then the intifada --
Charlie Rose: All right.
Mahmoud Abbas: -- As if -- as if there was a desire to destroy the expected results of Taba.
Charlie Rose: Hamas. I was in Damascus, as you know. And I spoke with Khaled Meshaal. He told me that if Israel with withdraw from the occupied territories, the resistance would end. Is he telling the truth?
Mahmoud Abbas: I believe that Khaled Meshaal said that in a different way. A few months ago, there were several declarations from the leadership of Hamas that the military resistance is not necessary. More than that -- moreover, that they will not allow some of the extremist groups from firing rockets on Gaza and that they would also arrest them and even beat them. I believe, in my opinion, I believe that is good that Hamas is playing this role. In other words, Hamas has reached the conclusion that we had reached earlier, ourselves, that military resistance has no benefit. And this is why they are talking now about what is called wise resistance; in other words, peaceful resistance through demonstrations, slogans, et cetera. And that is why Khaled Meshaal is telling the truth. However, let us not tie this to border or not border. Okay. He didn't say that. It was the leadership there. And let's keep that from --
Charlie Rose: The leadership in Gaza, yeah.
Mahmoud Abbas: Now -- yeah, okay, leadership in Gaza.
Charlie Rose: Can there be a peace agreement without a reconciliation between you and your government and Hamas?
Mahmoud Abbas: Let me clarify this point. You have introduced me as the chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization.
Charlie Rose: Right.
Mahmoud Abbas: I am in fact tasked by the PLO to lead the negotiations irrespective of whether Hamas agrees or not. This is a matter on the principle. However, I say it is necessary for a Palestinian reconciliation in order to get rid of this argument because there are those in Israel who say how can we have -- how can we reach peace while the Palestinians are divided? So, irrespective of this argument that some Israelis use, reconciliation is necessary. It is very necessary. And I am keen to have it done. And I am working to have it done. And for that reason, I have signed the Egyptian initiative.
Charlie Rose: Okay. Fair enough. But do you believe reconciliation is possible because Hamas is changing? And do you believe that they are prepared to reconcile with your government in terms of objectives? And do you believe that they are prepared to renounce their charter and renounce any destruction of the state of Israel?
Mahmoud Abbas: Regarding the destruction of the state of Israel, they are no longer talking about that.
Charlie Rose: Exactly. Exactly. That's right.
Mahmoud Abbas: They are talking about a state with temporary borders and then their talk changed, progressed to talk about the borders of '67 without saying that we recognize or we don't recognize Israel. But when they talk about borders of '67, that means the position within Hamas has changed and therefore their position is developing. And we are seeking the reconciliation. This may or may not take place. There may be some who are asking for reconciliation now, especially in the Gaza Strip. And there are those who are still hesitant for regional reasons.
Charlie Rose: You are pointing the finger at Iran. Mahmoud Abbas: Yes. Charlie Rose: Iran does not want to see reconciliation.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yes, for its own reasons. Iran would like to use Hamas for its own objectives. And for that reason, it is tying them or pushing them not to sign. And in spite of that, we are trying to explain to them and clarify to them that our national interest, the interest of our people, interests of our future necessity reconciliation. So when -- that if we reach a solution, we will have a unified state in Gaza and the West Bank.
Charlie Rose: Do you believe Hamas is prepared to turn away from Iran and that demand that the Iranian government is making of the Hamas leadership?
Mahmoud Abbas: I don't know. I don't know. I cannot -- I can't -- I cannot answer this question.
Charlie Rose: But therein lies an amazing opportunity. If Hamas can turn its back on Iran, which habits supplier of money as well as weapons -- yes? Then there may be opportunity because you are suggesting that you think Hamas is changing and that the --
Mahmoud Abbas: I did not say Hamas has changed. Some within Hamas have changed when it comes to -- and we're talking here at various degrees. Hamas has said the borders of '67. But regarding reconciliation, there are some who accept. There are some who reject. So we need to talk about the issue in detail. Is Hamas united on this specific point, or it is not united on this point.
Charlie Rose: Meshaal. Where do you think he stands?
Mahmoud Abbas: Khaled is the leader of Hamas, and he's the one that decides yes or no. Where there is no reconciliation, we know where he stands.
Charlie Rose: In other words, he prevents reconciliation. Khaled Meshaal stands in the way of reconciliation between Palestinians, PLO, and Hamas.
Mahmoud Abbas: Let me say yes because Khaled Meshaal is the one who represents Hamas. He is the leader of Hamas. He is the head of the political bureau Hamas. And therefore, wherever there is no reconciliation, it means he is stopping it.
Charlie Rose: Should Israel be talking to Hamas? Should Israel be talking to you? Should the United States be talking to Hamas?
Mahmoud Abbas: This is not my matter. I cannot tell America, tell the United States to talk or not to talk to Hamas or for Israel to talk or not to talk to Hamas. That is their concern. And this is why I am asked quite often. Khaled Meshaal visits this country, visits that country. We hear about some talks about American NGOs and others. We do not comment on this. We do not comment.
Charlie Rose: So you think there's a back door that's taking place.
Mahmoud Abbas: Possible. Possible.
Charlie Rose: Possible. Is that good?
Mahmoud Abbas: I do not comment on this issue at all.
Charlie Rose: Why not?
Mahmoud Abbas: Because I am not in a position to talk on behalf of other countries, you know. There are countries that want to talk to Hamas? Let them talk. They -- those countries discover whether they were wrong or right.
Charlie Rose: There are those who say Israel and the United States and the Palestinian Authority have not come to the aid of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip because they don't want to help Hamas.
Mahmoud Abbas: This is not true. And the evidence is that the Palestinian authority -- I don't talk on behalf of Israel or the United States of America, I can speak about the Palestinian authority. We as the Palestinian Authority, we pay 58 percent of the general budget of the Authority together in Gaza. The salaries of employees for electricity, water, fuel, education, health; we pay 58 percent to them. This is before the coup and until now. And we will continue. We will continue doing that. Why? Because we are paying for -- we're paying to our people. We don't want to punish the Palestinian people for what Hamas did when it did its coup.
Charlie Rose: So is there enough aid going into the Gaza Strip for the humanitarian support of the Palestinian people who live there?
Mahmoud Abbas: We are providing assistance to our people, however, we are asking to lift the siege on the people because Israel is blocking many materials from entering Gaza, for example, building materials, there is a list of materials and things that they don't allow. Israel does not have the right to impose a siege on Gaza, denying them the human needs, you know, the people's needs.
Charlie Rose: Imagine this conversation, and you've been a part of all the conversations for a long time, between you and the prime minister of Israel, and he says to you, "Mr. President, I'm responsible for the security of the Israeli people. How can I be sure if there's a Palestinian state, they will be secure? How can I know that there will not be missiles coming from across the border?" How can you convince him?
Mahmoud Abbas: First, now we as the Palestinian Authority, for more than three years there was not one single incident against Israel in the West Bank. I am keen on having these peace talks for the security of Israel, and I say it frankly, I do not want the Israelis to worry because of insecurity. And the same way, I don't want my people to suffer from the invasion and the violations that there are taking place almost daily on the part of the Israelis. So now you're asking about the Palestinian state. We have reached the conclusion, and this conclusion is ready. How do we perceive security the day after, that is, after the establishment of the Palestinian state, and we propose it as follows, that there would be a third party, the party that makes Israel feel comfortable, that would be present on Palestinian territory, and the proposal would be NATO on Palestinian land. Its mission would be to guarantee security and at the same time to assist the Palestinian Authority in building its own security apparatus for a period that we agree to. The numbers we would also agree to. The nature of the work, we also would agree to that. This way Israel would feel comfortable regarding its security and we would feel comfortable regarding our independence. So if we bring this equation into play that Israel gets its security and Palestine gets its independence. That is the solution that we seek to achieve.
Charlie Rose: On the security issue --
Mahmoud Abbas: Yes, yes on security. Yes. And that was something agreed upon. General Jim Jones --
Charlie Rose: Right, national security advisor to President Obama.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yes. For one year he worked on this file and we were total agreement between me and Olmert and this agreement you know could also affect our neighbors, you know. It could affect Egypt and Jordan so we agreed to that.
Charlie Rose: And the file is with him now?
Mahmoud Abbas: We’re just waiting now for the issues of the final step.
Charlie Rose: Okay, so let me just understand this because this is not a new idea. This idea has been there before. The notion -- well, Israel has said we don’t want any -- Israel has previously spoken to the fact -- you’re looking at me like I’m wrong so I stand to be corrected. Israel has spoken to the fact we do not want a peace-keeping force here, have they not?
Mahmoud Abbas: No, this did not take place. But also, Israel cannot keep occupying another people forever.
Charlie Rose: Okay.
Mahmoud Abbas: What are the guarantees? What are the guarantees that Israel wants? A third party? And this is an American party, European or whatever that would be there that Israel feels comfortable with. However, on this condition: I will not accept one Israeli to remain on Palestinian territory. If they agree to this, I’m ready. And it is fair, it is fair. Olmert had agreed to it.
Charlie Rose: He did. So Olmert agreed to that. It was part of the understanding.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yes.
Charlie Rose: That there would be an international force, NATO, whatever combination perhaps.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yeah, perhaps whoever does it.
Charlie Rose: Jews, Christians, Muslims --
Mahmoud Abbas: Any nationality, any religion; however, not Israeli citizens.
Charlie Rose: Nationality.
Mahmoud Abbas: That is right, nationality, nationality. You know, either they could be Americans or the Jewish religion? It’s no problem. But Israelis? No.
Charlie Rose: I imagine this took place today in your conversation with President Obama. This came up. Jim Jones was probably sitting in the room somewhere. This came up.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yes, between the fine -- yes, this came up.
Charlie Rose: So what did the president say? Good idea? Let’s try it? How do we achieve it?
Mahmoud Abbas: I did not hear the commentary over the president but I don’t think he is against the idea but I did not hear his commentary.
Charlie Rose: So the president didn’t say to you it will not work. He did not say that. He did not rule it out.
Mahmoud Abbas: No, no, no. He did not rule it out.
Charlie Rose: Do you believe this is a real possibility that will guarantee the security of Israel which is essential for Israel to withdraw from occupied land?
Mahmoud Abbas: This is the only road, the only way to guarantee and to assure security for Israel. The other road, the other way which is now occupation and occupation cannot continue, either for occupation to continue or to leave the Palestinians and they would work out their security and we would give them their guarantees for their own security. But for occupation to remain and they say we don’t feel comfortable until we reach, you know, the border of the Jordan River? No, that is not acceptable.
Charlie Rose: Why do you think the Israelis continue to occupy the West Bank?
Mahmoud Abbas: There is no reasonable reason for the continuation of the occupation now. Absolutely not.
Charlie Rose: They continue to do it so therefore they must have a reason for doing it.
Mahmoud Abbas: This doesn’t mean that there are reasonable reasons. Maybe in their minds there are other things that are not logical, that are not reasonable, but they can’t innovation of the occupation -- this is the only occupation that remains in the entire world. There’s only one occupation; the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian people. There is no other occupied country except ours.
Charlie Rose: If their security needs were satisfied, do you believe this government wants to see a Palestinian state, wants to see an agreement between Israel and Palestine?
Mahmoud Abbas: I believe that if the Israeli government did not agree to these steps, then Israel would not be working for the interests of Israel. It would not be working for the interests of the Israeli people.
Charlie Rose: So do you think Prime Minister Netanyahu wants a peace agreement?
Mahmoud Abbas: If I knew the answer, I would have given it to you.
Charlie Rose: Ah. So -- Mahmoud Abbas: What is -- what is supposed -- Netanyahu represent the Israeli people, right? Charlie Rose: Yes.
Mahmoud Abbas: The Israeli people, the latest opinion poll say that 80 percent of the Israelis want peace and want withdrawal. Therefore, if he were to withdraw and accept these guarantees, he would be representing the Israeli people. And if he doesn't accept, then I don't think he is representing the wishes of the Israeli people.
Charlie Rose: I will assume you would mean by that they want to see a peace agreement, but they also are -- want to see their ability to live in a secure --
Mahmoud Abbas: Of course.
Charlie Rose: -- environment.
Mahmoud Abbas: Of course. We are -- we were given these guarantees. First of all, for us, you know, the international presence for all of the Arabs, you know, recognition of Israel for all Muslim countries recognizing Israel. What more -- what more guarantees do they want? If they are not convinced by these guarantees, then they will not reach peace.
Charlie Rose: Well, I tell you what they would probably say. It's not Egypt, and it's not Saudi Arabia, and it's not necessarily Syria that is engaged in terrorist acts against their citizens. They wouldn't say that -- it's not the Arab countries that are doing -- that are threatening their security. It's people within the occupied territories or within the Gaza Strip. That's where the threat comes.
Mahmoud Abbas: Let me say something. The Palestinian people now is living a new culture let's say in the West Bank. I am convinced that it's also in Gaza. What is this new culture? It's the culture of peace. Go now. Go to the West Bank and tell people, let us go and do another intifada. You will not find one person respond. Why? Because the culture of peace has spread amongst them. But the continuation and continuation of the occupation makes people step away from their rational thinking, which is right now what they are thinking, rationally.
Charlie Rose: Fair enough. But the culture for peace has changed. What caused it to change?
Mahmoud Abbas: This is our work. This is our work. We believe in peace. Our government believes in peace. We impose security everywhere, so people felt secure and with security, and then economic development started coming, taking place. And then we started convincing people in schools, in the mosques that peace was necessary. So the culture moved from a culture of violence to a culture of peace. So when the Israelis are worried about what? These are illusions. And these are excuses that are used for not withdrawing. And they will lose in the end.
Charlie Rose: But it has been argued before by the Israelis and the prime minister of Israel that they have responded to what you have suggested in terms of what Prime Minister Fayyad has done by changing some of the checkpoints, that there is less.
Mahmoud Abbas: Do you believe that this is peace?
Charlie Rose: No, no, but I think --
Mahmoud Abbas: They take a checkpoint here and -- take it from here, put it up there?
Charlie Rose: I'm --
Mahmoud Abbas: Is this peace?
Charlie Rose: I believe it starts from the ground up. And I believe that's what Prime Minister Fayyad does. We'll build the institution. We'll create the circumstances. He's your colleague. That's what he believes, that we will do it, and you do it step by step. Okay.
Mahmoud Abbas: Okay, I agree. I agree. However, not taking away a checkpoint here or there --
Charlie Rose: I know.
Mahmoud Abbas: -- is going to give us peace. Peace is the goal.
Charlie Rose: Well, a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
Mahmoud Abbas: Until when?
Charlie Rose: Until two states live side by side.
Mahmoud Abbas: No, we are ready. We are ready.
Charlie Rose: Ah.
Mahmoud Abbas: We are ready for two states living side by side.
Charlie Rose: Is Hamas ready for two states living side by side? Because they are also Palestinians. Palestinians --
Mahmoud Abbas: I told from you the start that Hamas said we agree to a state with the 1967 borders. This was not mine; this. Was a declaration from Hamas. I heard from Hamas.
Charlie Rose: Right.
Mahmoud Abbas: So if they have said that, then they are convinced of that. So what does Israel need for us to convince her that we agree to be?
Charlie Rose: You create a state today, and tomorrow or tomorrow or tomorrow that creating a Palestinian state is just the first step towards some threat -- because they believe that there are people who will not accept the idea. I know you do.
Mahmoud Abbas: I say -- I say I sign on behalf of the Palestinian people that --
Charlie Rose: Right.
Mahmoud Abbas: -- when two states -- the conflict ends and all the demands of all the parties and over everything, it is not step after step we take. Now a state has a step, and then we ask for another state for another --
Charlie Rose: Right, right.
Mahmoud Abbas: These are.
Charlie Rose: -- are more territory.
Mahmoud Abbas: -- excuses.
Charlie Rose: Excuses, yes. That's not a reality of the Palestinian people. If they get -- if they get the land that was theirs before the '67 war, with some variation, that's enough. They will not be -- say, five years from now, we want more? 10 years from now, we want more than that? You'll sign that. That will be guaranteed. Okay. There is this also in your region. There is a new reality in the region. It's Turkey. It's Syria. It's Iran. It's Qatar. Is that true? And it's no longer Egypt that has the most powerful role. It's no longer Saudi Arabia, where the initiative, the Arab initiative came from. No longer. They are not the most important players any more. Iran, Syria, Turkey.
Mahmoud Abbas: I guarantee Syria, Qatar and Turkey, that -- I guarantee that these countries want peace. These countries want peace. Iran, I cannot -- that is not my problem. However, these countries, why? Because I know them. I know Qatar. I know Syria. Syria was negotiating with Israel.
Charlie Rose: Exactly. Through Turkey.
Mahmoud Abbas: Yeah. Through Turkey. And now -- now I know that Syria is ready for negotiations with the Israelis through Turkey.
Charlie Rose: You know that fact.
Mahmoud Abbas: I know that fact. Now they are ready.
Charlie Rose: But speak to my question that they are the new reality, Turkey, Syria, Qatar, more so than the old reality which -- you know, which was I think it was famously said you can't make war without Egypt, and you can't make peace without Syria.
Mahmoud Abbas: Now the situation -- there is the peace treaty with Egypt -- Syria --
Charlie Rose: Right, right.
Mahmoud Abbas: And Israeli.
Charlie Rose: Ready to --
Mahmoud Abbas: Turkey --
Charlie Rose: -- if they get the Golan back.
Mahmoud Abbas: Of course, of course. Syria needs to get the Golan. Lebanon -- Lebanon needs to get back [unintelligible], and I need to get back the West Bank and Gaza. If Israel wants peace now, now Israel withdraws right withdraws right now, it withdraws and Israel will get peace with 57 countries.
Charlie Rose: Fair enough. And will those -- Syria, for example, if it gets back to Golan Heights, stop supporting Hezbollah and Hamas?
Mahmoud Abbas: When Israel negotiates with Syria, they would negotiate over what? They would negotiate over the withdrawal --
Charlie Rose: The territory.
Mahmoud Abbas: -- from Golan.
Charlie Rose: Right.
Mahmoud Abbas: Okay? Okay?
Charlie Rose: The territory, all right.
Mahmoud Abbas: Israel can have anything else through the negotiations, putting it on the table what it wants, either through direct negotiations or through indirect negotiations that we are very much aware of and know. And therefore, it can ask for anything.
Charlie Rose: So they're the magic words, "negotiations," but you are not prepared to have direct negotiations with --
Mahmoud Abbas: Who?
Charlie Rose: -- you -- today with the -- until --
Mahmoud Abbas: I am ready for direct negotiations if he agrees. Right --
Charlie Rose: If he agrees to what?
Mahmoud Abbas: The principles of the negotiations, what are the -- there is a basis for negotiating, international legitimacy, yes?
Charlie Rose: Right, right.
Mahmoud Abbas: He said I am in agreement with -- I agree to international legitimacy, I agree to the Roadmap, I agree to ‘67 borders, we sit at the table, and we agree.
Charlie Rose: The right of return; is that still a big issue?
Mahmoud Abbas: Let me tell you, in the Arab Initiative, this magical initiative that the Israelis don't want to give any attention to; this is our trade: an agreed-upon solution to refugees according to ‘67 -- to 194 Resolution. Now, the -- we put these words on the table. We discuss all these. But Israel says this -- we need to put it away. Not put it on the table? Oh, but let's put it on the table. Let's discuss it. An agreed-upon solution.
Charlie Rose: Yeah.
Mahmoud Abbas: Who would refuse just an agreed-upon --
Charlie Rose: To put everything on the table.
Mahmoud Abbas: We'll put it on the table.
Charlie Rose: Yeah, this idea; Israel now, Prime Minister Netanyahu, when he talked for the first time about a Palestinian state, introduced this idea of a Jewish state, what do you make of that?
Mahmoud Abbas: Where is this word, Jewish state, and in what international decision or in what agreement between us and them or in [unintelligible] in what kind of international reference, where is it, Jewish state, where?
Charlie Rose: Do you want me to tell you where
Mahmoud Abbas: Shall I say it?
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Mahmoud Abbas: In the Decision of the Partition. Yes? Or correct?
Mahmoud Abbas: I'm not talking about that. So let us apply the Partition Decision.
Charlie Rose: The original Partition Decision in 1948.
Mahmoud Abbas: 1947.
Charlie Rose: '47.
Mahmoud Abbas: Okay?
Charlie Rose: That's the only time there was the mention of a Jewish state, was in the Partition Decision of 1947, '48?
Mahmoud Abbas: Even Truman, President Truman, when they asked him to recognize Jewish state he said, Israel only.
Charlie Rose: Israel only. So why do you think the prime minister is now reintroducing that idea?
Mahmoud Abbas: I don't know.
Charlie Rose: You do know.
Mahmoud Abbas: I don't.
Charlie Rose: Yes? [laughter]
Mahmoud Abbas: I will not answer.
Charlie Rose: Tell me, what's going to change the dynamic? If an American president who went to Cairo, made a speech that got lots of attention --
Mahmoud Abbas: [assent]
Charlie Rose: Words? Words. You're waiting for action.
Mahmoud Abbas: [assent]
Charlie Rose: Israelis are waiting for guarantees, I guess. And you're waiting for the occupation to end.
Mahmoud Abbas: What guarantees do they want? You talked about security.
Charlie Rose: Yes.
Mahmoud Abbas: I give them all the guarantees about security.
Charlie Rose: So you say to them, whatever you need about security, I’ll give it to you.
Mahmoud Abbas: What they --
Charlie Rose: De-militarized Palestinian state?
Mahmoud Abbas: What kind of militarized or de-militarized?
Charlie Rose: Yeah. But you basically are saying, “I’ll give them security. Whatever is necessary, we’ll put that, we’ll make that happen. We’ll make that happen. Give us back our land. Give us our capitol. And I will give them peace.
Charlie Rose: And give them security. Thank you for this. Nice to have a conversation with you, Mr. President --
Mahmoud Abbas: Thank you.
Charlie Rose: for the time that you took on a very busy trip to Washington meeting, as I said, with the President and Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, members of the American-Jewish community and others.
Mahmoud Abbas: Tonight I will see them.
Charlie Rose: Tonight.
Mahmoud Abbas: Right.
Charlie Rose: Thank you for your time.
Mahmoud Abbas: Thank you.
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